Scientology = cult
You have to pay them around $200,000 for "auditing" lessons. I think it's around $2,000/hour, which is a complete rip-off. They claim they need money to take over the world.
After you give the church about $300,000, you automatically become an OT, someone who has "heightened intelligence and powers." This, of course, is bull shit. Someone offered to give any OT $1,000,000 if he/she can show the world their supernatural powers. No one did... Their excuse: Scientology powers must be kept secret from the world.
It has founded during the mid 1900s by some psychotic maniac called L. Ron Hubbard. He even admitted that his whole religious infrastructure was made to generate money for himself.
Scientologists also use an ironic tactic called "Fair Game Policy." This gives all Scientologists the "right" to destroy, slander, lie, and even kill anyone who opposes their "religion."
If you were a Scientologist and you break free from their religion, they start harassing you until you give in.
Millions of people and families have been fucked up by Scientology.
Scientologists are the most annoying pieces of shit you will ever deal with. They're more stubborn than Christians, if that's even possible. Sites like xenu.net, which help reveal the misdeeds of Scientology, often get death threats by die-hard Scientologists. They claim all the information there is bull shit, when in reality, everything in that site was backed up by historical events. When asked to prove which information on the site was invalid, they start cursing at you. Here is an example of a discussion I read:
More info:
xenu.net
whyweprotest.net
You have to pay them around $200,000 for "auditing" lessons. I think it's around $2,000/hour, which is a complete rip-off. They claim they need money to take over the world.
After you give the church about $300,000, you automatically become an OT, someone who has "heightened intelligence and powers." This, of course, is bull shit. Someone offered to give any OT $1,000,000 if he/she can show the world their supernatural powers. No one did... Their excuse: Scientology powers must be kept secret from the world.
It has founded during the mid 1900s by some psychotic maniac called L. Ron Hubbard. He even admitted that his whole religious infrastructure was made to generate money for himself.
Scientologists also use an ironic tactic called "Fair Game Policy." This gives all Scientologists the "right" to destroy, slander, lie, and even kill anyone who opposes their "religion."
If you were a Scientologist and you break free from their religion, they start harassing you until you give in.
Millions of people and families have been fucked up by Scientology.
Scientologists are the most annoying pieces of shit you will ever deal with. They're more stubborn than Christians, if that's even possible. Sites like xenu.net, which help reveal the misdeeds of Scientology, often get death threats by die-hard Scientologists. They claim all the information there is bull shit, when in reality, everything in that site was backed up by historical events. When asked to prove which information on the site was invalid, they start cursing at you. Here is an example of a discussion I read:
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: <heldal@online.no>
Subject: You are a fool!
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998
I don't know whether you are a disaffected Scientologist of just someone from the outside looking in. Either way what you are doing says only one thing, you are either too blind or too stupid to see the truth when it hits you in the face. Scientology has only one goal, to make this planet sane. It strives to make the able more able. But in doing that, because there are people on this planet like you who do not want others to get better it needs to defend itself. "The lifeblood of Western nations is money. When an org is dealing with this society, it can go as far as it has financial resources". That is the cruel reality of things. We only have one chance to elevate ourselves out of the mud created by bafoons like you, and we need plenty of resource if we are to grow and prosper in spite of your attacks.
Here's another quote just for you, "...if one has a penchant for being a soulless idiot and believes he has no future, then he is in for a dreadful surprise once he kicks the bucket. The worse off he is, the nastier the surprise... Whether one has any reality on Scientology or not -- he will, once dead, oh yes, he will"! This is said by a man who had more insight in one molecule on his left pinky than attackers like you will ever have. You still have a choice though, it's still not too late. But lets face it you already feel pretty comfortable with your shovel so I suppose you'll want to keep digging. Have a nice eternity, and give my best to the other molecules!
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1998
Hi,
At 18:54 15.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>I don't know whether you are a disaffected
>Scientologist of just someone
How can you judge me and my opinions when you obviously have investigated so poorly? If you had any background to argue or to debate my case, then you would know this. But you haven't even bothered to read my web site, you just proved to be a one-sided cultist who are not willing to check out anything that don't comply with what you already have decided to believe in.
You, my friend, is the model of all victims of hoaxes as the one engineered by L Ron Hubbard.
>from the outside looking in. Either way what you
>are doing says only one thing, you are either too
>blind or too stupid to see the truth when it hits
>you in the
Tell me, what is your case level? If you believe you have enough knowledge about Scientology to call me stupid, then I need to know on what ground you stand. Are you a OT 8, or even a Clear? Did you ever meet L Ron Hubbard, or at least David Miscavige? To even have a chance to look like you really have reason to know anything, you must also have read many of the critical books and essays on Scientology and Hubbard? No, you haven't?
What is your "truth" then? Anything that is true for you? What "truth" am I blind to? You have proof that Hubbard didn't show perfect signs of paranoid schizophrenia? What do you actually know?
>face. Scientology has only one goal, to make this
>planet sane. It strives to
Hubbard himself was mad. He refused to acknowledge this and with his brilliant mind for fiction, and lust for power, he slowly created the plan of his life. There are many witnesses to prove that he made a religion for the money. Scientology uses known tricks to fool their members into believing it works. It's a bait and switch racket. Simple as that.
As to making sane, I know many people who have becomed mad because of the insane pressure and crazy demands in Scientology. I know people who have gotten their lifes ruined, and I've looked in the eyes of those who willingly betrayed them. If _that_ is your definition of sanity, then you can keep it.
>make the able more able. But in doing that, because
>there are people on this
This is bullshit. Scientologists aren't any more able than anybody else. There has never been even one single A Second Opinion! person who have been able to show any OT powers, and even the first Clear that Hubbard presented was hopelessly unable to the simplest task. The second "official Clear" was gay, and later Hubbards own son killed himself because his father couldn't accept him being gay too. Hubbard used drugs, he was a bigamist, after the war he was in the OTO cult trying to breed Anti-Christ. It all sounds like a very bad movie, but it actually is the life of L Ron Hubbard.
A Second Opinion! Where are the more able Scientologists? Ever heard of a Scientologist getting a Nobel price? How often do Scientologists win gold in the Olympics? Ever heard of a Scientologists who invented a new vaccine? No, the list of known Scientologist are musicians and actors! Being a musician is something you are trained to be, and if you also have a talent you might make a name. What is so great about actors? They are good at being directed? Hey, I don't see that as good human talent at all! Look at Pulp Fiction, is that the best you can produce being a Scientologist???
>planet like you who do not want others to get better
>it needs to defend
More bullshit, you are making up assumptions along the way about things you have no clue about. And you obviously didn't even care to find out first. You are the idiot when you claim I "do not want others to get better", what stupid thing is that to even think about others? Don't you even understand that we have different understanding of what "better" is and disagree on the best way to get there? Are you really this ignorant? Is that what Scientology does to you?
>itself. "The lifeblood of Western nations is money. When
>an org is dealing with this society, it can go as far as
>it has financial resources". That is the cruel reality of
>things. We only have one chance to elevate ourselves
The cruel reality of things is also that Hubbard got it exactly like he dreamed. He got all the money he wanted, he got his very own "navy" when he failed in the real one, and maybe the most important for him was the guru status where he had unlimited numbers of people who at any time were willing to spend their own money and time to sit and listen to his tales. He loved it, just like he loved to tell tales when still only a pulp writer. His co-writers has told everything, we know L Ron Hubbard inside out by now.
But there is no room in your life for a discrepancy in the fantasy. You will always assume first that it is me, the critic, that is wrong. And to defend yourself your mind will attack me and you will not dare to investigate the documentation made available by critics. You've invested far to much in this to dare to find out you have been had.
I bet Hubbard laughed at night, thinking about how far he could go. He even wrote a book on mind control, you know. You are his experiment.
>out of the mud created by bafoons like you, and we
>need plenty of resource if we are to grow and prosper
>in spite of your attacks.
Grow up! Go to my site and tear it apart!!! That is, if you really have anything to back up your claims. Do you see an error there, an untruth? Then tell me, show me what is wrong! I'll even put _YOUR_ comments all over my site to give visitors easy access to your opinions!
>Here's another quote just for you, "...if one has a
>penchant for being a soulless idiot and believes he has
>no future, then he is in for a dreadful surprise once he
>kicks the bucket. The worse off he is, the nastier the
>surprise... Whether one has any reality on Scientology
>or not -- he will, once dead, oh yes, he will"! This is
>said by a man who had more insight in one molecule on
>his left pinky than attackers like you will ever have.
>You still have a choice though, it's still not too late.
>But lets face it you already feel pretty comfortable
>with your shovel so I suppose you'll want to keep
>digging. Have a nice eternity, and give my best to the
>other molecules!
I have thousands of quotes for you too, many of them are already well documented on my site. Have you read OT III yet? You know space aliens came to earth 75 millions years ago and slaughtered billions? You know Hubbard wrote shit like this, and it is "revealed" in OT III? Do you want to know more? Did you know Hubbard said there was no Christ?
Show me who's the fool here.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
I have read enough of you vendetta web site to know there is more than just an objective view point going on, it's personal with you.
What you say about anyone who might actually embrace a better way is an insult. How dare you infer what I might know as a hoax and that you somehow know better.
You are obviously a very bitter creature with nothing better to do with your time than to attack an organization that has helped so many. Why don't you direct all that hate toward something that actually is harmful to mankind, like the big drug companies or the one world governments types. For this reason I can just as easily say you are the one duped by a hoax, the status quo lies that have kept mankind living a mediocre hell all these millenniums. I could go on but you are obviously beyond help in your twisted cause.
Oh, and by the way, I am an OT VII / Class V auditor with half the OEC course under my belt. I'm not telling you this to brag either. The kind of spiritualism and insight I have gained someone as solid as you probably couldn't even understand. Like I said, have a nice eternity.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
At 07:46 16.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>I have read enough of you vendetta web site to
>know there is more than just an objective view point
>going on, it's personal with you.
You've grossly misunderstood me and Operation Clambake. And as I suspected you've not investigated even close to enough to make any of the assumptions you have made about both.
I don't state anywhere that I'm objective. On the contrary, I'm human and I have my opinions. I set out to investigate Scientology, Dianetics, CoS and Hubbard, and came back with some opinions. I made a private web page (which evolved to a whole site) which can only reflect my opinions. That's not unbiased or objective, and it never claimed it was! Why should I strive to be objective? In the eyes of most Scientologists that means only repeating what's already well documented and said on official CoS sites. Why should I use my time and effort to duplicate anything I do not agree with? Please tell me where the logic is buried here. Being of a different opinion than you, does _NOT_ mean I did a less honest search for truth. It doesn't even have to mean I know less than you. You reveal your ignorance by arguing like that has to be the fact, while you don't even bothered to investigate enough to even make a slightly logical argument. Sorry pal, very poor job!
I spell it out pretty clear, even a fool like me is able enough to understand it, that these are my opinions and here are all the documentation which I base my current opinions on. Welcome visitor, you read and make up your own mind! And I go even further; I urge visitors to my site to also visit sites of people and organizations that represent views and opinions opposite to mine. I link to Official Church of Scientology Online Videos-What is Scientology, Scientologist Beliefs, Spiritual Healing with Dianetics (the official Scientology site), the freezoners and for example Russ Shaws bigot page. I tell visitors not to take my word for anything, but to check out even those who claim I'm a bigot, a fool, mad and a criminal.
Would you claim the official web pages of CoS are more objective than mine? I trust my fellow man, I don't want to trick anybody into agreeing with me by limiting their right to investigate only to my version. I don't want others to base their opinion on only censored or biased information. This is how cults operate and contradicts everything I stand for. I'm not afraid of neither lies nor the truth. CoS might come after me and spread lies to try to silence me, we have proof they have done this many times before, but I trust truth about me will win. I can only live my life as best I can, I have no chance against the black PR machinery of CoS, their millions of dollars or their unmoral methods. But enough critics like me will finally bring any monster to their knees. Along the way many may very well be crushed, but all will be crushed if nobody dare.
Your're the fool here, if any of us are, since you seem to be totally unwilling to acknowledge or respect that people like me disagree with you. I see no links from _ANY_ pro- Scientology sites to a critical page asking the reader to make up their own mind. Nowhere! The paradox is that CoS only have links to approved pro sites and even tell their members to install software on their computer which will blindly _censor_ all critical texts (and a lot more) when they connect to the 'Net.
For over 2 years I've even, on top of all the rest, invited all Scientologists in the world to point out where there are errors on my pages. If they can prove I'm wrong, then I'll change it. If they only have a different opinion I offer to host their opinions wherever they want on my pages so that visitors to Operation Clambake easily can access their comments too. I've also added a separate page where Scientologists can send me their texts to explain their general view, the subject is up to them. There is also an open guest book where Scientologists can post, have never censored a Scientologist from there. Have you read these page and noticed how many Scientologists who dared to take my challenge? If all my attempts to offer the opposite view isn't enough for you, then what, for crying out loud, would be?
It is a fact worthy of serious thought that no Scientologist so far have been able to do this. And there is no excuse for them, since I of course use their silence as my best argument when asked for the validity of my claims or defend against stupid claims that I am the bigot etc. I know exactly what you will say to this, please, at least try to surprise me with some real communication skills and reason.
And please think before you mail any more poorly thought claims about me hating you because you are a Scientologist or have anything against Scientology on bigoted grounds. It's just stupid and lacks any valid argument. Try instead to figure out why I do go after CoS, and not the Freezoners for example. Try to understand what really is going on, and allow yourself to at least be open for the possibility that even SPs like me can be rather nice people without any wish to harm you personally. Maybe I have no secret agenda, and even no hidden "blood sex crimes". Maybe I just see something that scares me in an organization that you view differently. Maybe one of us is wrong, maybe both of us have some things right. I'm not going to bite and I'm not going to willfully misunderstand your arguments. I might misunderstand, but I'll allow you to correct me. That's what a discussion is about.
>What you say about anyone who might actually embrace
>a better way is an insult. How dare you infer what I
>might know as a hoax and that you somehow know better.
I tell you my opinion. We disagree because we have different values and priorities in life, and different experiences. There are many things I know much better than you, and vice versa. And may I remind you that I didn't chase you with my opinions, but you came to me and initiated this e-mail exchange by calling me a fool.
You are the one judging me, without even the decency to give good arguments or documentation. You call me a fool and serve only a couple of quotes from Hubbard. I can only assume what you claim I have wrong, or what is so wrong in having a different opinion than you have.
The first impression of you and your case was very poor, but I'll happily give you several chances to fix that.
>You are obviously a very bitter creature with nothing
>better to do with your
I don't agree very much with Margaret Thatcher, but I'll give you a quote from her since you shared yours with me:
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."
Where is the logical connection between disagreeing with you and having to be bitter? Try to focus on the issue here, I'm not falling for your attempts to make me the cause of the idiocy and madness of L Ron Hubbard or your own religion. On my pages you find the documentations and arguments for my opinions and claims, try to address that if you dare.
>time than to attack an organization that has
>helped so many. Why don't you
You know very little about what I do with my life, for all you know I could be very effective and manage more than you and still handle my sites on the 'net. Don't make stupid assumptions about things you know close to nothing about. It only ruins your own case and makes you look like a fool. If I believe CoS is a threat against what I treasure in this society, then it should be pretty obvious why I do what I do. I have the ability to understand why you would be of your opinions, why is this so hard for you? If you need a cruel and evil enemy to justify your strange belief system, then you've come to the wrong place.
Did you honestly believe that I would change any opinions just because you sent me an e-mail claiming I am a fool? Are you such a lousy judge of character, that you thought this tactic would help your case with me? If not, why did you send such a mail to me then? Do you have the habit of doing things that has no sense or meaning?
>direct all that hate toward something that
>actually is harmful to mankind,
Same goes here; what has hate to do with being of the opinion that CoS is a dangerous organization and that Hubbard was mad? Do you hate all Christians since you disagree with them and believe the image of Jesus is an implanted image only? I'm not Christian, and I take my right to say my opinion about Christianity, still I hate no Christians. Actually some of my dearest friends are Christians. I'm an outspoken Atheist, but my goal isn't to make everybody Atheists, not even one! I know there will always be Scientologists, Christians and believers (and disbelievers) in all sorts of things. I dread the society, in fact, where everybody do and think the same.
In my opinion hate is destructive, I strive to be constructive. I have no hate for you, or any other Scientologist. I have no hate for CoS or David Miscavige. I don't hate KKK either, even though I'm as far from them in opinion as it is possible to be. Hating them does not do any good. Trying to challenge their minds and respecting them as fellow humans is what brings peace in the long run. It doesn't start anywhere else but with me. But respecting and tolerating others does not mean agreeing or not speaking up when one disagree! Daring to stand up and expressing critical opinions and views is what makes human thought evolve and is the core of what I consider my moral and ethical guidelines: The Human Rights as defined by UN.
>like the big drug companies or the one world
>governments types. For this
What will you accomplish by hating them? Nothing, still hating and alienating everything and everybody they don't like is an important part of Scientology. Says a lot about L Ron Hubbard, CoS, and people who defend them no matter what. While the support of Hubbard and CoS seems to be blind and unconditional among all Scientologists I've met, neither myself or any critics I've met have the same blind opinion about any other critic. Many critics have no problems with openly debating their disagreements, still we are friends and allow ourself to stand together when we do agree on some issues in life.
>reason I can just as easily say you are the one
>duped by a hoax, the status
And you have the right to say so if that is your opinion! I welcome yours, and CoSs, opinion about me and all my claims. Difference between us is that I have documented mine, you're just a lot of hot air so far.
>quo lies that have kept mankind living a mediocre hell
>all these millenniums. I could go on but you are
>obviously beyond help in your twisted cause.
Coward. You're just chickening out because you don't have anything that would hold water. It's your defence system acting, ignore the arguments and claims from the opposition by throwing suspicion on the person making them. That way you do not have to challenge your own. Only one with very weak arguments and proof do this. Hubbard wrote policies on how Scientologists should perfect it. If you were right and I were wrong, you (especially as a Scientologist) would have no problem ripping apart any argument or documentation I presented. What scares you? You don't have to answer me, just try to be honest to yourself for a couple of seconds.
What do I have to defend? Nothing. If anything in Scientology proves right I'll have no problem admitting it. If the documentation claiming Hubbard was a bigamist or used drugs and alcohol proves false, then I'll stop claiming it was so. But what do you have to loose? I suspect you have a long time investment, you've invested your personality and maybe most of your grownup life in Scientology. Maybe most of your friends are Scientologists and you know you will loose them if you blow. Maybe you don't have much money, no social security plan or simple things like a car and your own apartment (these are just examples, I'm not saying it has to fit you). What would it take for you to admit you are a victim of a hoax? Would it be possible for you at all, or would a lot of pride and shame easily come in the way for such an admittance? Wouldn't it just be easier for you to keep going along? I suspect this is one of the reasons why many have problems getting out, even though they probably know deep down something is very wrong. Cults are specialized on this, this is what makes them cults. It is not true that only fools fall for cults, anybody is a potential victim of mind control, fraud and deceit. Is it in the cards that, for example you, would know if you were had? No. Have others in other religions and movements based their belief on just as strong and convincing personal experiences (proof) as you base yours? Yes, this is very common. Still, all of them can't be true. This only shows that we are relatively easily fooled, or directed into accepting things that don't have to be true. Life in CoS gives you a lot, if not you wouldn't have been there. Still, do you ever wonder what might make you leave, or change your mind? If OT III didn't, or all the critical stuff on the 'Net - what then? If Hubbard _really_ was mad, would you ever find out if you only trust what CoS says?
>Oh, and by the way, I am an OT VII / Class V auditor
>with half the OEC course under my belt. I'm not telling
>you this to brag either. The kind of spiritualism and
>insight I have gained someone as solid as you probably
>couldn't even understand. Like I said, have a nice
>eternity.
Good! When you dare to seriously evaluate Operation Clambake and all the documentation there, we both know where the other stand and we can continue without getting stuck in misunderstandings.
But I have my doubt that you will continue. All the ones before you have stopped after two (or so) e-mail exchanges, chickening out claiming I was hopeless. Most started off like you by sending me no-good notes just to tell me I'm a fool, Clambake is full of errors or that I have misunderstood. When I asked them for explanations or documentation, they couldn't. And the replies that came seldom dared to quote my questions, they just repeated their attacks with new words and quotes by Hubbard.
This is what Scientologists call communication skills??? It should be no difficult challenge for an OT VIII / Class V auditor like yourself, to handle me. I must be a dream come true; someone really critical who you can demonstrate your communication skills and OT Powers on. Think of the Big Win if I told my CoS critic friends that I'd changed my opinion.
But since you have no OT Powers, because there are no such thing, and because the "communication skills" learned in CoS is worth zilch outside CoS environment - you have to find a way out of the tight spot by inventing something to blame on me. Listen to Lron and accept that I am among the hopeless SPs that has a secret agenda (sponsored by drug cartels or psychiatry organizations), or just call me a fool. Why should you take a criminal or a fool seriously? This way Lron got his followers to not evaluate the information and arguments that would make his house of cards crumble. Your ticket out of it is to distract yourself. So sad that we know all the tricks already. The only secrets you have now is all the new policies David Miscavige has made which has still not leaked out. I have a problem understanding why you would willingly trust your religion and your so-called church in this mans hands.
I have good reasons to take the same defence position, since I know there is no way I could change a long time Scientologist like you. But this is where you find the difference between you and me. My goal is not to change you, or convince you to leave CoS. My interest in talking to you is the same which made me investigate this subject in the first place. I would like to understand. I trust you if you say you believe in Scientology, I even trust you if you claim you have seen proof of it working. Like I believe others from other religions or convictions. I also assume, before finding proof of anything else, that you are a nice person with just as noble intentions as I have. I just happen to be of a different opinions on some basic issues. I still would like to understand you better, or at least offer you the chance to defend your case. I've never been afraid to challenge my opinions. I might be wrong, and challenging them is the only way I can find out.
PS: This reply is also posted to the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology since it could have some interest for others. I did of course remove your name and e-mail address first. Probably hard to accept, but even Scientologists can trust me.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
Babble, babble, yak, yak... wow, you must have alot of time on your hands to prove that truth is a lie. Maybe if you keep it up you'll actually believe it. All I know is Scientology works and that's the best definition of truth out there, the only time it doesn't is with SPs. I rest my case.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998
At 18:49 16.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>Babble, babble, yak, yak... wow, you must have alot
>of time on your hands to prove that truth is a lie. Maybe
>if you keep it up you'll actually believe it. All I know
>is Scientology works and that's the best definition of
>truth out there, the only time it doesn't is with SPs. I
>rest my case.
Coward. Is this what Scientology does to you?
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
I don't care to get into a verbal pissing match with the likes of you. All the names you want to invent about me aren't to change the simple fact that I support an organization who's only product is helping others. While your only product is criticism. Help vs. destruction, I think I'll take the former.
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net"
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998
Hi,
At 21:42 16.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>I don't care to get into a verbal pissing match with
>the likes of you. All the names you want to invent
>about me aren't to change the simple fact that I
>support an organization who's only product is helping
>others. While your only product is criticism. Help vs.
>destruction, I think I'll take the former.
At pissing you would probably beat me, but when it comes to communication I'll match ten of you any day.
It is almost frightening how predictable you Scientologists are. Your lack of communication skills is so obvious that our e-mail exchange work as first class examples when I try to show people what Scientology does to people. At least you dared to initiate the e-mail exchange, for that you deserve some credit. But as a true Scientologist you were unable to point at any errors on my site, present any comments to what I have there or even follow up any of your claims about Scientology and CoS with documentation and arguments. My challenges stands unanswered by numerous Scientologists who look like they are just scared or filled with anger.
Tell Lisa McPherson that the only product of CoS is helping others. Oh, I forgot: You can't tell her since she is dead! With the help (read confinement at Ft. Harrison for 17 days) from the likes of you, after desperately shouting for help and banging the door, she turned up dead at the hospital. Extremely dehydrated and her body full of cockroach bites. What about telling it to the children in the Sea Org that CoS only helps them, or what about those who secretly have been kept in RPF for years? Tell all the Scientologists that either have killed themselves or ended up in endless debt or insane that Hubbard wasn't after their money and obedience. Tell all of them David Miscavige gives a shit.
The leaders of your "Cockroach Cult" have done more harm to Scientology than I could ever dream of managing. The fact that we now know the true life of L Ron Hubbard is of course helpful too. And ironically you help my fight too, doesn't matter if you reply or not. If you really cared about and believed in Scientology you would get rid of the current management. But you don't, do you?
You're just a marionette, caught in the web of fear and fraud knitted by people who will drop you as a used rag the day you are of no more use to them. That's what makes me care, and feel the worry I feel. I can't help someone who does not want my help, but I can prevent others from joining CoS. And at that job I'm not ashamed to say I've been pretty good.
I truly wish you the best for this holiday. I don't mean to offend you in any way, believe it or not but I do care. And if you ever in the future find yourself in a situation where you will need help, then I'll do my very best to support you. Depending on where you live I might even put you in contact with people who have been through the same. No strings attached, just keep it in mind.
Take care.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Against human nature one cannot legislate. One can only try to
educate it, and it is a slow process with only a distant hope
of success. - Bernard Bernstein
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998
Here we go again with more nonsense. I could just as easily go tit for tat with you by saying your communication is bad, you are predictable, you are a marionette, that you and your ilk are "cockroaches" (all true) and then point out the many psychiatry deaths, then end the message with a nice 1.1 "wish you the best..." while offering my help you poor pathetic you. But you have demonstrated you aren't worth the trouble. All you can do is attempt to destroy something you obviously don't understand (because you insist it is so bad and I am living proof it is not) and offer only the meaningless status quo in it's place. So I repeat, have a nice eternity among all the molecules that you will someday join.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999
Hi,
Hope you've had a good holiday with your family and those dear to you. May the new year bring us all a lot of joy.
At 20:06 20.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>Here we go again with more nonsense. I could just as
>easily go tit for tat with you by saying your
>communication is bad, you are predictable, you are a
But you don't, that shows you are just a lot of hot air.
>marionette, that you and your ilk are "cockroaches"
>(all true) and then
I've begged you to start communicating some real arguments and proof, but you were unable to. Sorry pal, you blew all these chances to show you were better and that Scientology was any good. I've documented my case, you messed up yours more than I could manage.
>point out the many psychiatry deaths, then end the
>message with a nice 1.1
One death does not make another one good. Whatever problems in society you might find interesting to point out to me, none of them wipe out any of the ones I point out in CoS. Use your "communication skills" to try to keep to the subject. But you don't want to loose the little you have left, do you? You need that, at least, to cling on to.
Why so scared? Why not start quoting some of my questions or "errors" on my site and just _answer_ them?
>"wish you the best..." while offering my help you poor
>pathetic you. But you
Guess it would be below you to wish someone like me the best or offering help, huh? Thanks, again you have shown the true face of Scientology.
>have demonstrated you aren't worth the trouble. All you
The defence mechanism kicking in again. Hubbard taught you well. I ask again: Why did you waste your time writing me the first time then? Aren't you an OT?
>can do is attempt to destroy something you obviously
>don't understand (because you insist it is so bad and I
>am living proof it is not) and offer only the meaningless
Then prove it! Where is the communication skills? Where are all the able Clears and OTs? Where are your OT powers? Where are my errors, what don't I understand?
You got no proof and I got a site full. Why waste time acting like the fool?
>status quo in it's place. So I repeat, have a nice
>eternity among all the molecules that you will someday
>join.
Thanks, wherever I'm going I'll be prepared to face it. In the meantime your e-mail exchange with me will serve as documentation for the world how unable a Scientologist can be. You can read it all again here:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/otvii/
Take care.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Freedom always entails danger." - W. E. B. Du Bois
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999
I told you before, I refuse to go tit for tat with your inane hatred of Scientology. You are a obviously a very sad person with nothing better to do than to attempt to pick apart something that has worked for so many, including myself. It doesn't doesn't work for you (and your cabal of malcontents), because you are an SP (evident in the name of your pathetic web page). So go climb back under your rock and bother someone else!
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999
Hi again,
At 18:51 02.01.99 -0800, you wrote:
>I told you before, I refuse to go tit for tat with your
I'll respond to your e-mails as long as you mail me. If you can't handle it (or me) then you have to be the one stopping.
The tragic fact that the only communication you are able to do with me is to have a "verbal pissing match" talks for itself. What a poor excuse when you have neither the skill nor the case to engage in a civilized debate. Pity for you that you initiated this, had you only done some simple research first you would have known before you started what you know now. You couldn't win this one.
>inane hatred of Scientology. You are a obviously a very
Stop hiding behind your fantasy that I hate you or your religion. I am a threat to the current CoS and I'll do what it takes to openly fight the likes of David Miscavige and his gang, but I have no problem with people believing in Scientology. On the contrary, I've made friends during the last years with several people who still believe in Scientology. Difference between you and them is that they acknowledge that CoS itself is a threat against their religion. My fight against CoS is, to me, just as much a fight for their right to practice Scientology without having to support a criminal cult. After Hubbard died David Miscavige has changed a lot in Scientology and because he (literally) owns the copyright for words like 'Scientology' and 'Scientologist' nobody are free to practice what they believe originally is their religion. Therefore the current management of CoS is the biggest threat against any true Scientologist.
>sad person with nothing better to do than to attempt to
>pick apart something that has worked for so many,
Who do you think your are fooling? Not me or any of the other readers, that's for sure. There are obvious problems in CoS and you are unwilling to even talk about it. You'll stand by the current leaders even though they stole CoS and Scientology after Hubbard died. You're not interested in the truth or in justice, you show this by not answering any of my questions or challenges. You talk about proof but have no reference, then go on about my life as if your fantasies would take the attention away from the facts so obvious to most others. I've presented lots of documentation of criminal acts done by the management of CoS, I've showed a corrupt organization and have testimonies from thousands of former members who have had losses as a direct result of their involvement with CoS all around the world. I never claimed there are nobody like you who do not recognize this or don't have positive testimonies to tell. I link to official CoS sites packed with such, and even offer to host your "success stories" on my site if you dare to share it. But one nice story does not make a bad one invalid. Not even thousands of nice testimonies can weigh up for one life ruined by CoS. That's where your logic fails, and your communication skills dies.
>including myself. It doesn't doesn't work for you (and
>your cabal of malcontents), because you are an SP
>(evident in the name of your pathetic web page). So go
Stop acting like a fool, you haven't even dared to read my site. You've been given all kind of chances to make right any errors I present and tear my site and arguments apart, but all you can produce is this crap. What a sad excuse of a person you are.
>climb back under your rock and bother someone else!
You wish. Sorry, but critics like me are here to stay, and many more are coming your way. Take the bait set out by CoS and find your "truth" by making us enemies instead of listening to what we say. The truth is your enemy and the critics best friend. That's why we dare to debate openly and why we tell others to check both sides before making up their own opinion.
Thank you for reminding me why it is so important that I continue to offer the critical view. It has helped me putting words on several thoughts by replying to your poorly documented and tragically argumented e-mails. You may think I've not touched anything in you, but I don't care since that was not my intention anyway. I'm interested in the validity of my own arguments and is searching for truth. Whatever it may be. Meeting an OT VII / Class V auditor with half the OEC course under your belt has been an enlightening experience. But I would have enjoyed it even more if you taught me something new or at least challenged my opinions, but I guess I can't get all I want.
Take care.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could
have acted, the indifference of those who should have known
better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered
most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
- Haile Selassie
---------------------------------------------------------------
To: <heldal@online.no>
Subject: You are a fool!
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998
I don't know whether you are a disaffected Scientologist of just someone from the outside looking in. Either way what you are doing says only one thing, you are either too blind or too stupid to see the truth when it hits you in the face. Scientology has only one goal, to make this planet sane. It strives to make the able more able. But in doing that, because there are people on this planet like you who do not want others to get better it needs to defend itself. "The lifeblood of Western nations is money. When an org is dealing with this society, it can go as far as it has financial resources". That is the cruel reality of things. We only have one chance to elevate ourselves out of the mud created by bafoons like you, and we need plenty of resource if we are to grow and prosper in spite of your attacks.
Here's another quote just for you, "...if one has a penchant for being a soulless idiot and believes he has no future, then he is in for a dreadful surprise once he kicks the bucket. The worse off he is, the nastier the surprise... Whether one has any reality on Scientology or not -- he will, once dead, oh yes, he will"! This is said by a man who had more insight in one molecule on his left pinky than attackers like you will ever have. You still have a choice though, it's still not too late. But lets face it you already feel pretty comfortable with your shovel so I suppose you'll want to keep digging. Have a nice eternity, and give my best to the other molecules!
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1998
Hi,
At 18:54 15.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>I don't know whether you are a disaffected
>Scientologist of just someone
How can you judge me and my opinions when you obviously have investigated so poorly? If you had any background to argue or to debate my case, then you would know this. But you haven't even bothered to read my web site, you just proved to be a one-sided cultist who are not willing to check out anything that don't comply with what you already have decided to believe in.
You, my friend, is the model of all victims of hoaxes as the one engineered by L Ron Hubbard.
>from the outside looking in. Either way what you
>are doing says only one thing, you are either too
>blind or too stupid to see the truth when it hits
>you in the
Tell me, what is your case level? If you believe you have enough knowledge about Scientology to call me stupid, then I need to know on what ground you stand. Are you a OT 8, or even a Clear? Did you ever meet L Ron Hubbard, or at least David Miscavige? To even have a chance to look like you really have reason to know anything, you must also have read many of the critical books and essays on Scientology and Hubbard? No, you haven't?
What is your "truth" then? Anything that is true for you? What "truth" am I blind to? You have proof that Hubbard didn't show perfect signs of paranoid schizophrenia? What do you actually know?
>face. Scientology has only one goal, to make this
>planet sane. It strives to
Hubbard himself was mad. He refused to acknowledge this and with his brilliant mind for fiction, and lust for power, he slowly created the plan of his life. There are many witnesses to prove that he made a religion for the money. Scientology uses known tricks to fool their members into believing it works. It's a bait and switch racket. Simple as that.
As to making sane, I know many people who have becomed mad because of the insane pressure and crazy demands in Scientology. I know people who have gotten their lifes ruined, and I've looked in the eyes of those who willingly betrayed them. If _that_ is your definition of sanity, then you can keep it.
>make the able more able. But in doing that, because
>there are people on this
This is bullshit. Scientologists aren't any more able than anybody else. There has never been even one single A Second Opinion! person who have been able to show any OT powers, and even the first Clear that Hubbard presented was hopelessly unable to the simplest task. The second "official Clear" was gay, and later Hubbards own son killed himself because his father couldn't accept him being gay too. Hubbard used drugs, he was a bigamist, after the war he was in the OTO cult trying to breed Anti-Christ. It all sounds like a very bad movie, but it actually is the life of L Ron Hubbard.
A Second Opinion! Where are the more able Scientologists? Ever heard of a Scientologist getting a Nobel price? How often do Scientologists win gold in the Olympics? Ever heard of a Scientologists who invented a new vaccine? No, the list of known Scientologist are musicians and actors! Being a musician is something you are trained to be, and if you also have a talent you might make a name. What is so great about actors? They are good at being directed? Hey, I don't see that as good human talent at all! Look at Pulp Fiction, is that the best you can produce being a Scientologist???
>planet like you who do not want others to get better
>it needs to defend
More bullshit, you are making up assumptions along the way about things you have no clue about. And you obviously didn't even care to find out first. You are the idiot when you claim I "do not want others to get better", what stupid thing is that to even think about others? Don't you even understand that we have different understanding of what "better" is and disagree on the best way to get there? Are you really this ignorant? Is that what Scientology does to you?
>itself. "The lifeblood of Western nations is money. When
>an org is dealing with this society, it can go as far as
>it has financial resources". That is the cruel reality of
>things. We only have one chance to elevate ourselves
The cruel reality of things is also that Hubbard got it exactly like he dreamed. He got all the money he wanted, he got his very own "navy" when he failed in the real one, and maybe the most important for him was the guru status where he had unlimited numbers of people who at any time were willing to spend their own money and time to sit and listen to his tales. He loved it, just like he loved to tell tales when still only a pulp writer. His co-writers has told everything, we know L Ron Hubbard inside out by now.
But there is no room in your life for a discrepancy in the fantasy. You will always assume first that it is me, the critic, that is wrong. And to defend yourself your mind will attack me and you will not dare to investigate the documentation made available by critics. You've invested far to much in this to dare to find out you have been had.
I bet Hubbard laughed at night, thinking about how far he could go. He even wrote a book on mind control, you know. You are his experiment.
>out of the mud created by bafoons like you, and we
>need plenty of resource if we are to grow and prosper
>in spite of your attacks.
Grow up! Go to my site and tear it apart!!! That is, if you really have anything to back up your claims. Do you see an error there, an untruth? Then tell me, show me what is wrong! I'll even put _YOUR_ comments all over my site to give visitors easy access to your opinions!
>Here's another quote just for you, "...if one has a
>penchant for being a soulless idiot and believes he has
>no future, then he is in for a dreadful surprise once he
>kicks the bucket. The worse off he is, the nastier the
>surprise... Whether one has any reality on Scientology
>or not -- he will, once dead, oh yes, he will"! This is
>said by a man who had more insight in one molecule on
>his left pinky than attackers like you will ever have.
>You still have a choice though, it's still not too late.
>But lets face it you already feel pretty comfortable
>with your shovel so I suppose you'll want to keep
>digging. Have a nice eternity, and give my best to the
>other molecules!
I have thousands of quotes for you too, many of them are already well documented on my site. Have you read OT III yet? You know space aliens came to earth 75 millions years ago and slaughtered billions? You know Hubbard wrote shit like this, and it is "revealed" in OT III? Do you want to know more? Did you know Hubbard said there was no Christ?
Show me who's the fool here.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
I have read enough of you vendetta web site to know there is more than just an objective view point going on, it's personal with you.
What you say about anyone who might actually embrace a better way is an insult. How dare you infer what I might know as a hoax and that you somehow know better.
You are obviously a very bitter creature with nothing better to do with your time than to attack an organization that has helped so many. Why don't you direct all that hate toward something that actually is harmful to mankind, like the big drug companies or the one world governments types. For this reason I can just as easily say you are the one duped by a hoax, the status quo lies that have kept mankind living a mediocre hell all these millenniums. I could go on but you are obviously beyond help in your twisted cause.
Oh, and by the way, I am an OT VII / Class V auditor with half the OEC course under my belt. I'm not telling you this to brag either. The kind of spiritualism and insight I have gained someone as solid as you probably couldn't even understand. Like I said, have a nice eternity.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
At 07:46 16.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>I have read enough of you vendetta web site to
>know there is more than just an objective view point
>going on, it's personal with you.
You've grossly misunderstood me and Operation Clambake. And as I suspected you've not investigated even close to enough to make any of the assumptions you have made about both.
I don't state anywhere that I'm objective. On the contrary, I'm human and I have my opinions. I set out to investigate Scientology, Dianetics, CoS and Hubbard, and came back with some opinions. I made a private web page (which evolved to a whole site) which can only reflect my opinions. That's not unbiased or objective, and it never claimed it was! Why should I strive to be objective? In the eyes of most Scientologists that means only repeating what's already well documented and said on official CoS sites. Why should I use my time and effort to duplicate anything I do not agree with? Please tell me where the logic is buried here. Being of a different opinion than you, does _NOT_ mean I did a less honest search for truth. It doesn't even have to mean I know less than you. You reveal your ignorance by arguing like that has to be the fact, while you don't even bothered to investigate enough to even make a slightly logical argument. Sorry pal, very poor job!
I spell it out pretty clear, even a fool like me is able enough to understand it, that these are my opinions and here are all the documentation which I base my current opinions on. Welcome visitor, you read and make up your own mind! And I go even further; I urge visitors to my site to also visit sites of people and organizations that represent views and opinions opposite to mine. I link to Official Church of Scientology Online Videos-What is Scientology, Scientologist Beliefs, Spiritual Healing with Dianetics (the official Scientology site), the freezoners and for example Russ Shaws bigot page. I tell visitors not to take my word for anything, but to check out even those who claim I'm a bigot, a fool, mad and a criminal.
Would you claim the official web pages of CoS are more objective than mine? I trust my fellow man, I don't want to trick anybody into agreeing with me by limiting their right to investigate only to my version. I don't want others to base their opinion on only censored or biased information. This is how cults operate and contradicts everything I stand for. I'm not afraid of neither lies nor the truth. CoS might come after me and spread lies to try to silence me, we have proof they have done this many times before, but I trust truth about me will win. I can only live my life as best I can, I have no chance against the black PR machinery of CoS, their millions of dollars or their unmoral methods. But enough critics like me will finally bring any monster to their knees. Along the way many may very well be crushed, but all will be crushed if nobody dare.
Your're the fool here, if any of us are, since you seem to be totally unwilling to acknowledge or respect that people like me disagree with you. I see no links from _ANY_ pro- Scientology sites to a critical page asking the reader to make up their own mind. Nowhere! The paradox is that CoS only have links to approved pro sites and even tell their members to install software on their computer which will blindly _censor_ all critical texts (and a lot more) when they connect to the 'Net.
For over 2 years I've even, on top of all the rest, invited all Scientologists in the world to point out where there are errors on my pages. If they can prove I'm wrong, then I'll change it. If they only have a different opinion I offer to host their opinions wherever they want on my pages so that visitors to Operation Clambake easily can access their comments too. I've also added a separate page where Scientologists can send me their texts to explain their general view, the subject is up to them. There is also an open guest book where Scientologists can post, have never censored a Scientologist from there. Have you read these page and noticed how many Scientologists who dared to take my challenge? If all my attempts to offer the opposite view isn't enough for you, then what, for crying out loud, would be?
It is a fact worthy of serious thought that no Scientologist so far have been able to do this. And there is no excuse for them, since I of course use their silence as my best argument when asked for the validity of my claims or defend against stupid claims that I am the bigot etc. I know exactly what you will say to this, please, at least try to surprise me with some real communication skills and reason.
And please think before you mail any more poorly thought claims about me hating you because you are a Scientologist or have anything against Scientology on bigoted grounds. It's just stupid and lacks any valid argument. Try instead to figure out why I do go after CoS, and not the Freezoners for example. Try to understand what really is going on, and allow yourself to at least be open for the possibility that even SPs like me can be rather nice people without any wish to harm you personally. Maybe I have no secret agenda, and even no hidden "blood sex crimes". Maybe I just see something that scares me in an organization that you view differently. Maybe one of us is wrong, maybe both of us have some things right. I'm not going to bite and I'm not going to willfully misunderstand your arguments. I might misunderstand, but I'll allow you to correct me. That's what a discussion is about.
>What you say about anyone who might actually embrace
>a better way is an insult. How dare you infer what I
>might know as a hoax and that you somehow know better.
I tell you my opinion. We disagree because we have different values and priorities in life, and different experiences. There are many things I know much better than you, and vice versa. And may I remind you that I didn't chase you with my opinions, but you came to me and initiated this e-mail exchange by calling me a fool.
You are the one judging me, without even the decency to give good arguments or documentation. You call me a fool and serve only a couple of quotes from Hubbard. I can only assume what you claim I have wrong, or what is so wrong in having a different opinion than you have.
The first impression of you and your case was very poor, but I'll happily give you several chances to fix that.
>You are obviously a very bitter creature with nothing
>better to do with your
I don't agree very much with Margaret Thatcher, but I'll give you a quote from her since you shared yours with me:
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."
Where is the logical connection between disagreeing with you and having to be bitter? Try to focus on the issue here, I'm not falling for your attempts to make me the cause of the idiocy and madness of L Ron Hubbard or your own religion. On my pages you find the documentations and arguments for my opinions and claims, try to address that if you dare.
>time than to attack an organization that has
>helped so many. Why don't you
You know very little about what I do with my life, for all you know I could be very effective and manage more than you and still handle my sites on the 'net. Don't make stupid assumptions about things you know close to nothing about. It only ruins your own case and makes you look like a fool. If I believe CoS is a threat against what I treasure in this society, then it should be pretty obvious why I do what I do. I have the ability to understand why you would be of your opinions, why is this so hard for you? If you need a cruel and evil enemy to justify your strange belief system, then you've come to the wrong place.
Did you honestly believe that I would change any opinions just because you sent me an e-mail claiming I am a fool? Are you such a lousy judge of character, that you thought this tactic would help your case with me? If not, why did you send such a mail to me then? Do you have the habit of doing things that has no sense or meaning?
>direct all that hate toward something that
>actually is harmful to mankind,
Same goes here; what has hate to do with being of the opinion that CoS is a dangerous organization and that Hubbard was mad? Do you hate all Christians since you disagree with them and believe the image of Jesus is an implanted image only? I'm not Christian, and I take my right to say my opinion about Christianity, still I hate no Christians. Actually some of my dearest friends are Christians. I'm an outspoken Atheist, but my goal isn't to make everybody Atheists, not even one! I know there will always be Scientologists, Christians and believers (and disbelievers) in all sorts of things. I dread the society, in fact, where everybody do and think the same.
In my opinion hate is destructive, I strive to be constructive. I have no hate for you, or any other Scientologist. I have no hate for CoS or David Miscavige. I don't hate KKK either, even though I'm as far from them in opinion as it is possible to be. Hating them does not do any good. Trying to challenge their minds and respecting them as fellow humans is what brings peace in the long run. It doesn't start anywhere else but with me. But respecting and tolerating others does not mean agreeing or not speaking up when one disagree! Daring to stand up and expressing critical opinions and views is what makes human thought evolve and is the core of what I consider my moral and ethical guidelines: The Human Rights as defined by UN.
>like the big drug companies or the one world
>governments types. For this
What will you accomplish by hating them? Nothing, still hating and alienating everything and everybody they don't like is an important part of Scientology. Says a lot about L Ron Hubbard, CoS, and people who defend them no matter what. While the support of Hubbard and CoS seems to be blind and unconditional among all Scientologists I've met, neither myself or any critics I've met have the same blind opinion about any other critic. Many critics have no problems with openly debating their disagreements, still we are friends and allow ourself to stand together when we do agree on some issues in life.
>reason I can just as easily say you are the one
>duped by a hoax, the status
And you have the right to say so if that is your opinion! I welcome yours, and CoSs, opinion about me and all my claims. Difference between us is that I have documented mine, you're just a lot of hot air so far.
>quo lies that have kept mankind living a mediocre hell
>all these millenniums. I could go on but you are
>obviously beyond help in your twisted cause.
Coward. You're just chickening out because you don't have anything that would hold water. It's your defence system acting, ignore the arguments and claims from the opposition by throwing suspicion on the person making them. That way you do not have to challenge your own. Only one with very weak arguments and proof do this. Hubbard wrote policies on how Scientologists should perfect it. If you were right and I were wrong, you (especially as a Scientologist) would have no problem ripping apart any argument or documentation I presented. What scares you? You don't have to answer me, just try to be honest to yourself for a couple of seconds.
What do I have to defend? Nothing. If anything in Scientology proves right I'll have no problem admitting it. If the documentation claiming Hubbard was a bigamist or used drugs and alcohol proves false, then I'll stop claiming it was so. But what do you have to loose? I suspect you have a long time investment, you've invested your personality and maybe most of your grownup life in Scientology. Maybe most of your friends are Scientologists and you know you will loose them if you blow. Maybe you don't have much money, no social security plan or simple things like a car and your own apartment (these are just examples, I'm not saying it has to fit you). What would it take for you to admit you are a victim of a hoax? Would it be possible for you at all, or would a lot of pride and shame easily come in the way for such an admittance? Wouldn't it just be easier for you to keep going along? I suspect this is one of the reasons why many have problems getting out, even though they probably know deep down something is very wrong. Cults are specialized on this, this is what makes them cults. It is not true that only fools fall for cults, anybody is a potential victim of mind control, fraud and deceit. Is it in the cards that, for example you, would know if you were had? No. Have others in other religions and movements based their belief on just as strong and convincing personal experiences (proof) as you base yours? Yes, this is very common. Still, all of them can't be true. This only shows that we are relatively easily fooled, or directed into accepting things that don't have to be true. Life in CoS gives you a lot, if not you wouldn't have been there. Still, do you ever wonder what might make you leave, or change your mind? If OT III didn't, or all the critical stuff on the 'Net - what then? If Hubbard _really_ was mad, would you ever find out if you only trust what CoS says?
>Oh, and by the way, I am an OT VII / Class V auditor
>with half the OEC course under my belt. I'm not telling
>you this to brag either. The kind of spiritualism and
>insight I have gained someone as solid as you probably
>couldn't even understand. Like I said, have a nice
>eternity.
Good! When you dare to seriously evaluate Operation Clambake and all the documentation there, we both know where the other stand and we can continue without getting stuck in misunderstandings.
But I have my doubt that you will continue. All the ones before you have stopped after two (or so) e-mail exchanges, chickening out claiming I was hopeless. Most started off like you by sending me no-good notes just to tell me I'm a fool, Clambake is full of errors or that I have misunderstood. When I asked them for explanations or documentation, they couldn't. And the replies that came seldom dared to quote my questions, they just repeated their attacks with new words and quotes by Hubbard.
This is what Scientologists call communication skills??? It should be no difficult challenge for an OT VIII / Class V auditor like yourself, to handle me. I must be a dream come true; someone really critical who you can demonstrate your communication skills and OT Powers on. Think of the Big Win if I told my CoS critic friends that I'd changed my opinion.
But since you have no OT Powers, because there are no such thing, and because the "communication skills" learned in CoS is worth zilch outside CoS environment - you have to find a way out of the tight spot by inventing something to blame on me. Listen to Lron and accept that I am among the hopeless SPs that has a secret agenda (sponsored by drug cartels or psychiatry organizations), or just call me a fool. Why should you take a criminal or a fool seriously? This way Lron got his followers to not evaluate the information and arguments that would make his house of cards crumble. Your ticket out of it is to distract yourself. So sad that we know all the tricks already. The only secrets you have now is all the new policies David Miscavige has made which has still not leaked out. I have a problem understanding why you would willingly trust your religion and your so-called church in this mans hands.
I have good reasons to take the same defence position, since I know there is no way I could change a long time Scientologist like you. But this is where you find the difference between you and me. My goal is not to change you, or convince you to leave CoS. My interest in talking to you is the same which made me investigate this subject in the first place. I would like to understand. I trust you if you say you believe in Scientology, I even trust you if you claim you have seen proof of it working. Like I believe others from other religions or convictions. I also assume, before finding proof of anything else, that you are a nice person with just as noble intentions as I have. I just happen to be of a different opinions on some basic issues. I still would like to understand you better, or at least offer you the chance to defend your case. I've never been afraid to challenge my opinions. I might be wrong, and challenging them is the only way I can find out.
PS: This reply is also posted to the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology since it could have some interest for others. I did of course remove your name and e-mail address first. Probably hard to accept, but even Scientologists can trust me.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
Babble, babble, yak, yak... wow, you must have alot of time on your hands to prove that truth is a lie. Maybe if you keep it up you'll actually believe it. All I know is Scientology works and that's the best definition of truth out there, the only time it doesn't is with SPs. I rest my case.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998
At 18:49 16.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>Babble, babble, yak, yak... wow, you must have alot
>of time on your hands to prove that truth is a lie. Maybe
>if you keep it up you'll actually believe it. All I know
>is Scientology works and that's the best definition of
>truth out there, the only time it doesn't is with SPs. I
>rest my case.
Coward. Is this what Scientology does to you?
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998
I don't care to get into a verbal pissing match with the likes of you. All the names you want to invent about me aren't to change the simple fact that I support an organization who's only product is helping others. While your only product is criticism. Help vs. destruction, I think I'll take the former.
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net"
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998
Hi,
At 21:42 16.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>I don't care to get into a verbal pissing match with
>the likes of you. All the names you want to invent
>about me aren't to change the simple fact that I
>support an organization who's only product is helping
>others. While your only product is criticism. Help vs.
>destruction, I think I'll take the former.
At pissing you would probably beat me, but when it comes to communication I'll match ten of you any day.
It is almost frightening how predictable you Scientologists are. Your lack of communication skills is so obvious that our e-mail exchange work as first class examples when I try to show people what Scientology does to people. At least you dared to initiate the e-mail exchange, for that you deserve some credit. But as a true Scientologist you were unable to point at any errors on my site, present any comments to what I have there or even follow up any of your claims about Scientology and CoS with documentation and arguments. My challenges stands unanswered by numerous Scientologists who look like they are just scared or filled with anger.
Tell Lisa McPherson that the only product of CoS is helping others. Oh, I forgot: You can't tell her since she is dead! With the help (read confinement at Ft. Harrison for 17 days) from the likes of you, after desperately shouting for help and banging the door, she turned up dead at the hospital. Extremely dehydrated and her body full of cockroach bites. What about telling it to the children in the Sea Org that CoS only helps them, or what about those who secretly have been kept in RPF for years? Tell all the Scientologists that either have killed themselves or ended up in endless debt or insane that Hubbard wasn't after their money and obedience. Tell all of them David Miscavige gives a shit.
The leaders of your "Cockroach Cult" have done more harm to Scientology than I could ever dream of managing. The fact that we now know the true life of L Ron Hubbard is of course helpful too. And ironically you help my fight too, doesn't matter if you reply or not. If you really cared about and believed in Scientology you would get rid of the current management. But you don't, do you?
You're just a marionette, caught in the web of fear and fraud knitted by people who will drop you as a used rag the day you are of no more use to them. That's what makes me care, and feel the worry I feel. I can't help someone who does not want my help, but I can prevent others from joining CoS. And at that job I'm not ashamed to say I've been pretty good.
I truly wish you the best for this holiday. I don't mean to offend you in any way, believe it or not but I do care. And if you ever in the future find yourself in a situation where you will need help, then I'll do my very best to support you. Depending on where you live I might even put you in contact with people who have been through the same. No strings attached, just keep it in mind.
Take care.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Against human nature one cannot legislate. One can only try to
educate it, and it is a slow process with only a distant hope
of success. - Bernard Bernstein
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998
Here we go again with more nonsense. I could just as easily go tit for tat with you by saying your communication is bad, you are predictable, you are a marionette, that you and your ilk are "cockroaches" (all true) and then point out the many psychiatry deaths, then end the message with a nice 1.1 "wish you the best..." while offering my help you poor pathetic you. But you have demonstrated you aren't worth the trouble. All you can do is attempt to destroy something you obviously don't understand (because you insist it is so bad and I am living proof it is not) and offer only the meaningless status quo in it's place. So I repeat, have a nice eternity among all the molecules that you will someday join.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999
Hi,
Hope you've had a good holiday with your family and those dear to you. May the new year bring us all a lot of joy.
At 20:06 20.12.98 -0800, you wrote:
>Here we go again with more nonsense. I could just as
>easily go tit for tat with you by saying your
>communication is bad, you are predictable, you are a
But you don't, that shows you are just a lot of hot air.
>marionette, that you and your ilk are "cockroaches"
>(all true) and then
I've begged you to start communicating some real arguments and proof, but you were unable to. Sorry pal, you blew all these chances to show you were better and that Scientology was any good. I've documented my case, you messed up yours more than I could manage.
>point out the many psychiatry deaths, then end the
>message with a nice 1.1
One death does not make another one good. Whatever problems in society you might find interesting to point out to me, none of them wipe out any of the ones I point out in CoS. Use your "communication skills" to try to keep to the subject. But you don't want to loose the little you have left, do you? You need that, at least, to cling on to.
Why so scared? Why not start quoting some of my questions or "errors" on my site and just _answer_ them?
>"wish you the best..." while offering my help you poor
>pathetic you. But you
Guess it would be below you to wish someone like me the best or offering help, huh? Thanks, again you have shown the true face of Scientology.
>have demonstrated you aren't worth the trouble. All you
The defence mechanism kicking in again. Hubbard taught you well. I ask again: Why did you waste your time writing me the first time then? Aren't you an OT?
>can do is attempt to destroy something you obviously
>don't understand (because you insist it is so bad and I
>am living proof it is not) and offer only the meaningless
Then prove it! Where is the communication skills? Where are all the able Clears and OTs? Where are your OT powers? Where are my errors, what don't I understand?
You got no proof and I got a site full. Why waste time acting like the fool?
>status quo in it's place. So I repeat, have a nice
>eternity among all the molecules that you will someday
>join.
Thanks, wherever I'm going I'll be prepared to face it. In the meantime your e-mail exchange with me will serve as documentation for the world how unable a Scientologist can be. You can read it all again here:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/otvii/
Take care.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Freedom always entails danger." - W. E. B. Du Bois
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999
I told you before, I refuse to go tit for tat with your inane hatred of Scientology. You are a obviously a very sad person with nothing better to do than to attempt to pick apart something that has worked for so many, including myself. It doesn't doesn't work for you (and your cabal of malcontents), because you are an SP (evident in the name of your pathetic web page). So go climb back under your rock and bother someone else!
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: Scientologist [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: You are a fool!
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999
Hi again,
At 18:51 02.01.99 -0800, you wrote:
>I told you before, I refuse to go tit for tat with your
I'll respond to your e-mails as long as you mail me. If you can't handle it (or me) then you have to be the one stopping.
The tragic fact that the only communication you are able to do with me is to have a "verbal pissing match" talks for itself. What a poor excuse when you have neither the skill nor the case to engage in a civilized debate. Pity for you that you initiated this, had you only done some simple research first you would have known before you started what you know now. You couldn't win this one.
>inane hatred of Scientology. You are a obviously a very
Stop hiding behind your fantasy that I hate you or your religion. I am a threat to the current CoS and I'll do what it takes to openly fight the likes of David Miscavige and his gang, but I have no problem with people believing in Scientology. On the contrary, I've made friends during the last years with several people who still believe in Scientology. Difference between you and them is that they acknowledge that CoS itself is a threat against their religion. My fight against CoS is, to me, just as much a fight for their right to practice Scientology without having to support a criminal cult. After Hubbard died David Miscavige has changed a lot in Scientology and because he (literally) owns the copyright for words like 'Scientology' and 'Scientologist' nobody are free to practice what they believe originally is their religion. Therefore the current management of CoS is the biggest threat against any true Scientologist.
>sad person with nothing better to do than to attempt to
>pick apart something that has worked for so many,
Who do you think your are fooling? Not me or any of the other readers, that's for sure. There are obvious problems in CoS and you are unwilling to even talk about it. You'll stand by the current leaders even though they stole CoS and Scientology after Hubbard died. You're not interested in the truth or in justice, you show this by not answering any of my questions or challenges. You talk about proof but have no reference, then go on about my life as if your fantasies would take the attention away from the facts so obvious to most others. I've presented lots of documentation of criminal acts done by the management of CoS, I've showed a corrupt organization and have testimonies from thousands of former members who have had losses as a direct result of their involvement with CoS all around the world. I never claimed there are nobody like you who do not recognize this or don't have positive testimonies to tell. I link to official CoS sites packed with such, and even offer to host your "success stories" on my site if you dare to share it. But one nice story does not make a bad one invalid. Not even thousands of nice testimonies can weigh up for one life ruined by CoS. That's where your logic fails, and your communication skills dies.
>including myself. It doesn't doesn't work for you (and
>your cabal of malcontents), because you are an SP
>(evident in the name of your pathetic web page). So go
Stop acting like a fool, you haven't even dared to read my site. You've been given all kind of chances to make right any errors I present and tear my site and arguments apart, but all you can produce is this crap. What a sad excuse of a person you are.
>climb back under your rock and bother someone else!
You wish. Sorry, but critics like me are here to stay, and many more are coming your way. Take the bait set out by CoS and find your "truth" by making us enemies instead of listening to what we say. The truth is your enemy and the critics best friend. That's why we dare to debate openly and why we tell others to check both sides before making up their own opinion.
Thank you for reminding me why it is so important that I continue to offer the critical view. It has helped me putting words on several thoughts by replying to your poorly documented and tragically argumented e-mails. You may think I've not touched anything in you, but I don't care since that was not my intention anyway. I'm interested in the validity of my own arguments and is searching for truth. Whatever it may be. Meeting an OT VII / Class V auditor with half the OEC course under your belt has been an enlightening experience. But I would have enjoyed it even more if you taught me something new or at least challenged my opinions, but I guess I can't get all I want.
Take care.
Best wishes, SP4 & Adm. TOXE CXI
Andreas Heldal-Lund, Normannsgaten 9, N-4013 Stavanger, Norway
Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: heldal@online.no
home.sol.no/~spirous Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology www.hedning.no/hedning
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could
have acted, the indifference of those who should have known
better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered
most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
- Haile Selassie
---------------------------------------------------------------
xenu.net
whyweprotest.net
Originally Posted by Chignon
